Late Diagnosed Life (Me?AuDHD?)

Is your heart full? Listen in as this week's guest, Toni Green, shares how full her heart has become as she's rediscovered herself and worked through some big emotions about late life ADHD diagnosis. 

You'll hear about her career change after receiving an ADHD diagnosis, what she believes and teaches about creating neuro-affirmative workplace cultures, and her own unexpected grief for what might have been had she only been diagnosed earlier.

Listen now as Strengthen Live host Andrea Urquhart, AuDHD, Emotion & Positive Psychology Coach has a candid heart to heart Toni.

To contact Toni, head to:

Linked In (Organisation Training)

Instagram (Personal Coaching enquiries)

Instagram (Toni's Jewellery & Art)

Etsy Creative Shop

Thanks for joining me today! If you've had an "Aha!" moment whilst listening today, click subscribe to add Strengthen Live to your favourite podcasts.

Click through to https://strengthenlive.com to discover more about online courses, coaching and training with me. I have a special interest in coaching neuro-divergent, professional women. If you're looking for a coach who sees you as an individual, you've found her!

Visit my website to request a call-back or message me on LinkedIn.

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Transcript

00:00:08):
Welcome to the Strengthen Live podcast.

(00:00:11):
I'm your host,

(00:00:11):
Andrea Urquhart,

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and this is the place for trailblazing,

(00:00:15):
empathetic leaders who are also recovering people pleasers.

(00:00:18):
If you have a big heart and your passion is supporting others to change their lives

(00:00:23):
for the better,

(00:00:23):
find home and belonging here.

(00:00:28):
Hello and welcome to the Strengthen Live podcast.

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I'm so excited to introduce you to Toni Green today.

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When I first met her,

(00:00:35):
we instantly connected and found ourselves going very deep into a real

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heart-to-heart conversation.

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And I just thought, I want to interview Toni on the podcast.

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And so here she is today.

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Now,

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Toni is one of those people very much like Kate,

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who I interviewed a few episodes ago,

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who has what you might call a portfolio career.

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She is involved in lots of

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So she works for an organisation that supports over 250 charities and organisations

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across Bath and North East Somerset,

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running a volunteer network and delivering neurodiversity understanding and

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awareness in the workplace training.

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So she is a really experienced trainer and has a great understanding about

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neurodiversity,

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including being a qualified ADHD and neurodiversity coach.

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and then also she's a big creative so she's an artist designer photographer and

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what she describes as a maker tony by her own admission loves creating connecting

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with people supporting others and hanging out with her cats and she's also a

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presenter on the local radio station and

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And Toni really kindly agreed to come and talk about her personal experience of

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discovering that she was neurodivergent and that deep unraveling and rediscovery of

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herself after many years of experiencing other labels and other descriptions for

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the challenges that she experienced.

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So without any further delay,

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listen in while Toni and I have a chat about all things neurodiversity and late

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diagnosis.

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It's just brilliant to have you here.

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Thank you so much,

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not just for saying yes to coming on,

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but I know that you are really open to sharing your journey very honestly as well.

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And so I just want to say thank you even before we start today for being here with

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us on Strengthen Live.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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It's a pleasure.

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I absolutely am happy to share if it helps anyone else.

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Yeah,

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I think that's one of the things that is actually really powerful for people who

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have a neurodivergent experience as well.

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That so often we can feel alone and people feel like, oh, it's just me.

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It's only me.

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And the sharing of stories can really be very powerful.

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Definitely.

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I'm much better at connecting with people on a deeper level.

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I'm not very good at small talk.

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I get straight to it as well.

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Welcome, welcome.

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You're my kind of person.

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I knew I liked you from the moment I first met you.

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Brilliant.

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Yeah, we definitely do deep talk here.

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So let's dive straight in.

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First thing that I'd love to ask you is what's the most rewarding thing about the

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work that you do?

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Well, there's so many things to choose from.

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I think for me,

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definitely all of the work that I do,

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I wear quite a lot of hats and many different roles.

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Within my main job,

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which is working in the charity sector,

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I think my favourite thing is meeting so many amazing people with such warm,

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kind hearts.

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because you know the sector tends to attract people that want to help and support

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others and that is exactly what I love to do so yeah and just meeting those people

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and connecting with them is fantastic so it's definitely the people I've always

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been quite a people pleaser and I've always been a bit of a motherly figure ever

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since I was a child I've always been quite old before my time I think just helping

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people so my job is very much

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supporting lots of different people in lots of different situations.

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And that actually spans across a lot of what I do and a lot of my work in all different roles.

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I just love to help people.

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All of the things I do, I'm really able to do that.

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So that is super rewarding.

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And I think just in all of it as well,

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as I've said,

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just connecting with people and chatting and being real and vulnerable and open

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about any struggles or experiences I've had,

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it enables other people to do the same.

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And making people feel less alone is,

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It's what I love to do.

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So if I can help even just one person, then me oversharing was completely worth it.

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There's such a huge difference,

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isn't there,

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between somebody coming to people with information and telling them what they

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should or shouldn't do and somebody coming with that empathetic,

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caring heart.

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And also their own story as well.

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I think,

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you know,

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people really relate to that,

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even when we're in a professional role,

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that we're able to be professional and caring at the same time.

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And,

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you know,

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at the end of the day,

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it is all about the people that we're helping,

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isn't it,

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when we're working in roles like you do.

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Yeah.

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So what do you think in all that you do?

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So it's very orientated to supporting other people,

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which again,

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a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are also people in the wellbeing and

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therapy space and people who are supporting other people.

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So for your particular journey,

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as we've already said,

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kindly said that you're very open to sharing about the neurodivergent part of your

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journey and who you are as a neurodivergent woman as well.

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It's

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Obviously very fulfilling for you.

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I mean,

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I know everybody else can't see you,

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but I can see you lighting up while you're talking about what you do.

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So it's clearly a really good fit for you.

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But that doesn't necessarily mean even when we're a really good fit for a role that

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we find it easy all of the time.

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So what are the strengths that carry you through that to help you in this role

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where you're giving out?

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I am someone who very much thrives on connection, creativity and empathy.

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All of the roles that I do tick those boxes.

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So I'm really lucky that I'm able to do those things.

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For a long time, I did jobs that I didn't feel as passionate about.

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But I thought, you know, you've got to do things that make you happy.

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And actually, I wasn't bringing my best self to my previous jobs because my heart wasn't in it.

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And now I get to

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actually connect on a deeper level I get to support people help people in whatever

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way shape or form that might be and across many different ways of doing that so I

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feel very lucky but I'm a very creative person I'm not the best at structure but I

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try my best and you know I know that the things that maybe I lack I make up in

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other ways so it's all about that balance

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So I love those,

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just that blend of creativity and connection and empathy,

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because I think you've mentioned the variety that you have in your work,

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but also you work with lots of different people.

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And I think there's a match there,

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isn't there,

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of the variety that you're able to bring to the work you do,

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because you work with a variety of people.

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And it obviously sounds like it gives you lots of touch points with different

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people and different ways to connect with them.

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So, yeah.

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Absolutely does.

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Yeah.

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Yeah,

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I think before this job that I was working and I was working for one particular

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charity,

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which was great.

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And I loved it.

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And I think working with the volunteers that I managed was my favorite part because.

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Yeah.

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They were just fantastic people.

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And I got to work in lots of different locations with lots of different people with

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all these amazing skills.

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And that was, it was so rewarding.

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Now the role that I do is I work with a local infrastructure organization.

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So we're essentially a charity that supports charities.

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And we happen to support over 250 charities across Bath and Northeast Somerset.

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That's loads.

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Yeah.

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It is a lot.

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Yes, it is a lot.

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And, you know, it can be overwhelming sometimes.

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Yeah.

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But actually,

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I kind of view it in the way that I'm just really grateful that I get to work with

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so many fantastic charities and organisations that are helping support.

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all of these people that need help and yeah to feel less alone or to kind of just

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connect because they've got these amazing skills or to you know that they love

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nature and they want to get out and do more for their well-being and I'm just all

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for that so if there's any tiny thing that I can do in those spaces it's it's

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fantastic yeah and it's it's really varied so it keeps my ADHD brain quite happy

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because it means I'm not doing one thing all the time

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So yeah,

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of course,

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you know,

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when we're talking about ADHD or any other kind of neurodivergency,

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you know,

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obviously everybody,

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neurotypical or neurodivergent,

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we're all unique,

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but there is that extra uniqueness,

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isn't there,

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for every individual who's neurodivergent.

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You know,

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we say if you've met one neurodivergent person,

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you've only met one neurodivergent person.

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And

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You know,

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with your own personal story and your strengths and talents and gifts that you use,

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there must be challenges as well to the work that you do.

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I was just wondering,

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before we go on to your personal challenges in terms of neurodivergency,

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what have you found challenging about the role that you do,

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you know,

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with giving out so much to other people?

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Or is there a connection there?

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Is there a connection between what's challenging and your

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neurodivergency or do you think it's just challenging because that's the kind of

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role it is I think that's a really good question actually because I think it's so

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interlinked all of it really I think I've always been very keen to help and support

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other people but

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I think like a lot of other neurodivergent people and neurotypical people,

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it's much easier to help support other people than to actually look after yourself.

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So in giving so much to other people,

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you can quite often get in cycles of burnout and just overwhelm.

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And that's really hard.

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And, you know, it does happen.

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I'm not going to lie to you.

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I still have moments where I'm like,

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oh,

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my gosh,

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I need to kind of just shut myself in a dark room for a bit and just try and

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decompress.

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Yeah.

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you know rest and just bring myself back to full health but it's definitely a

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learning curve I think I because I've got ADHD and autism and that's that's quite a

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constant battle anyway yeah the ADHD loves the chaos and the kind of spontaneity

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and the excitement and the variety whereas the autism like structure and

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organization and those aren't my strengths so I think I have to work really hard at

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trying to have more more structure in my

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day-to-day life so that I can actually tick off the jobs on my list that need doing

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but I think the balance is quite nice because I work with lots of different people

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lots of different charities lots of different things but yeah it does mean that I

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have to have that structure and I'm fortunate enough to have worked with a great

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team so I've got the support if I need it and I'm definitely better now at

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putting my hand up and asking for help when I need it or reaching out when I'm like

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okay I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed can I just talk through what I need to do

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and like even just talking to someone whether you need their input or their help or

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not can be so beneficial to help you organize your thoughts

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Yeah, definitely.

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And of course,

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I'm listening to you knowing,

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you know,

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as I've shared in your bio,

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that you're an ADHD coach.

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Now,

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there's a myth about coaching in general,

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I think,

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that some people have,

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which is like coaches have to have it all together,

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otherwise they can't help to coach other people.

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But which is absolute, yeah, just amazing.

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Absolute rubbish.

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So,

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you know,

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how does your training as an ADHD coach help you in the workplace,

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not just to help other people,

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but help you as an individual?

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Do you ever feel, oh, I'm an ADHD coach, I should know how to look after myself?

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Or is it that you've got an extended toolkit?

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What's that like?

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How do you experience that?

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Yeah,

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I think,

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again,

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that's really interesting to think about because it's similar because,

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you know,

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it's so much easier to help support other people than it is for yourself.

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But actually also learning the tools and techniques that you are helping teach other people.

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Yeah,

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it kind of does make you feel a little bit more accountable to actually try and

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practice that yourself.

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So you should be practicing what you preach and it's much harder.

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It's not as easy as trying to help other people find these tools and utilize them.

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Since doing lots of training,

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my passion is neurodiversity and helping workplaces,

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communities,

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schools understand neurodivergent brains and just all brain types.

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So delve deep into lots of training.

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I just love it.

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I think the more training I've done, the better I am at holding myself accountable.

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So I find myself noticing when I'm maybe spiraling or noticing the negative thought patterns.

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And I'm much easier at recognizing it in the moment and kind of being like, OK, step back.

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What would I say to somebody else in this situation?

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And actually trying to turn it around.

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because I feel like that's a really helpful thing.

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You wouldn't talk to a friend the way that you talk to yourself sometimes.

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And I'm much better at catching myself in those moments now,

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which has been hugely beneficial,

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to be honest.

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Yeah.

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And presumably that helps to prevent so much boom and bust and burnout experience as well.

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Definitely.

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And I think having that trust in the workplace that you can just be like, okay,

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I'm struggling with this can I talk through it with you or can you help me break

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this task down you know just actually being open and not feeling bad or ashamed for

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actually asking for help or just needing someone else to bounce ideas off of

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there's no shame in that there's so much strength in in knowing our limitations and

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knowing when we need support yeah

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Yeah,

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I think that's that's one of the biggest things I think just find the people that

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you trust.

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Yeah, and then ask for help or talk to them.

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I think that openness is so important for us.

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Now,

(00:13:29):
I really want to ask you about your personal story,

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which you have really kindly said you're happy to share more of just before I do

(00:13:34):
when we were chatting about the podcast.

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to talk about what we'd like to talk about on the podcast we had a really

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interesting conversation about training what the heart of training is and you were

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talking about at the end of the day whether someone's neurotypical or neurodiverse

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it's all about understanding and accepting and making way for the individual so

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within my full-time job i deliver like neurodiversity understanding and awareness

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training specifically within the workplace

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And I love doing that because I try and break down the stereotypes,

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the common myths and misconceptions,

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but also bring that human element.

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So I share quite a lot about my lived experience and how certain things have

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impacted me,

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negative experiences I may have had,

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but also equally the positive stuff as well.

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So I think I go through all of the kind of learning,

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but I emphasize the entire way through the training.

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that this training is about just understanding individuals and understanding that

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there are lots of different brain types and that actually we shouldn't be trying to

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put people in boxes so if you're autistic then that means you need this support

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this specific like toolkit or if you're ADHD you need this specific toolkit or if

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you've

(00:14:43):
got dyspraxia dyscalculia any any of them um it's about actually realizing that all

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of these things are interlinked quite often quite often neurodivergent conditions

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don't sit on their own and actually so that will impact people in such different

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ways so we should be trying not to pigeonhole people we should be trying to

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support just individual approaches and actually just making our workplaces more

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accessible for everyone it doesn't just benefit neurodivergent people that will

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benefit all brain types all the time because people will be coming to work as their

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authentic selves they'll feel that they're supported that they're understood that

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they're not going to be shamed for asking for a reasonable adjustments that they

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will actually just be supported to thrive and that's exactly what i want everyone

(00:15:26):
to be able to do

(00:15:27):
Yes, and that sounds amazing, doesn't it?

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It sounds like this is the goal.

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And as you say, people who are neurotypical thrive in that as well.

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And I think there's a real challenge,

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which might be a conversation for another day,

(00:15:39):
but a real challenge for people running organisations and responsible for

(00:15:44):
communities and culture in terms of how you set the tone.

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It's not even just about adapting and adjusting to individuals,

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but that people are able to be seen and heard and accepted as the individual that

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they are and how we work together in that way.

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And I think it brings a great richness to a team when there is that understanding.

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Have you always known that you had ADHD?

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How did you discover that you were neurodivergent?

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I definitely didn't always know.

(00:16:13):
I am one of the later diagnosed women.

(00:16:16):
But I think probably going back, I was well behaved at school.

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I was quite quiet.

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I passed all my exams.

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I worked really hard.

(00:16:25):
So on the face of it, I was fine.

(00:16:28):
But I was really tired a lot of the time,

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just constantly not really understanding social situations within the school

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environment.

(00:16:35):
So actually,

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for me,

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coping at school was keeping my head down,

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working really hard on the exams and the stuff.

(00:16:42):
because I could understand what I had to do there that like the groups and then the

(00:16:46):
falling out and the drama like that I could not deal with at all so yeah my way of

(00:16:51):
coping was to just get through and and do my best and work really hard which wasn't

(00:16:55):
easy I didn't remember things very well so I had to work super hard to try and

(00:17:00):
actually retain information but yeah I got through and didn't really think much of

(00:17:05):
it carried on I think life happens you know I went to college I went to uni um

(00:17:10):
I think the more pressure was put on or the more responsibilities I had,

(00:17:14):
the harder I found it to cope,

(00:17:17):
I suppose.

(00:17:19):
It probably wasn't until I became a mother that I think my balance was off,

(00:17:26):
that I kind of reached my level of what I could cope with and how I could bring my

(00:17:30):
best self to any situation.

(00:17:33):
And I think the kind of the silly mistakes that I'd make sometimes here and there

(00:17:36):
were more and more,

(00:17:36):
I suppose.

(00:17:37):
And I truly believe that we've all got different levels of how much we can put up

(00:17:41):
with or cope with or thrive and thrive.

(00:17:44):
i think yeah for me being a mother was it kind of tipped me over the edge i was

(00:17:48):
diagnosed with depression as a teenager so i already had that underlying diagnosis

(00:17:55):
from when i was younger and i think that anything that i'd done to try and support

(00:18:00):
myself through that didn't really make any difference which felt really confusing

(00:18:06):
on its own because you think well

(00:18:09):
If I've got this answer for what's,

(00:18:12):
you know,

(00:18:12):
maybe not making me feel super well in my brain,

(00:18:15):
why isn't it fixing it?

(00:18:16):
Why is it still not quite right?

(00:18:18):
And then I think roll on several years.

(00:18:21):
And after I'd had children, I realized that a lot of my coping strategies and things were

(00:18:28):
actually more based around anxiety as well so I think I struggled with big social

(00:18:33):
things at work or going to new places and I'm not very good at public transport

(00:18:40):
like trains really stress me out because I'm worried I'm going to miss things or

(00:18:44):
I'm not going to make it I'm going to fall asleep even if it's in the

(00:18:48):
I know it's not like these things aren't logical and I can see it in myself,

(00:18:52):
but I think the kind of anxious traits came up more and more.

(00:18:55):
So I was then diagnosed with anxiety.

(00:18:57):
And again,

(00:18:57):
any kind of methods to try and help ease the symptoms of depression and anxiety

(00:19:03):
just didn't really seem to cut it.

(00:19:05):
And so you're kind of left quite often feeling like...

(00:19:08):
you're the problem and that you're broken or that you're just not good enough or

(00:19:13):
that you can't do things like everyone else.

(00:19:15):
And I think it wasn't for years later.

(00:19:17):
So I was diagnosed with ADHD about four years ago now and just made a lot of sense.

(00:19:23):
It kind of made me understand my brain a bit more, which is why then I fell into depression

(00:19:28):
Just learning as much as I possibly could about neurodiversity in general and all

(00:19:32):
of these different conditions and all of our brain types.

(00:19:36):
And it's fascinating because you actually start to unpick things that you kind of

(00:19:42):
never really noticed or realized about yourself.

(00:19:44):
Yeah.

(00:19:44):
That was a big deal and I think what got me to that point was the more I'd looked

(00:19:50):
into information about neurodiversity the more I kind of could see the ADHD in

(00:19:56):
myself and I was convinced I had it long before I did the assessment and again as

(00:20:02):
most people it took a couple of years to get the diagnosis.

(00:20:06):
But I think what I wasn't expecting is that when I initially received the

(00:20:11):
diagnosis,

(00:20:11):
I thought it would make me feel instantly better or relieved.

(00:20:16):
I don't know.

(00:20:17):
I kind of was expecting a really positive change, like instantly.

(00:20:21):
And that may not have been realistic or reasonable, but I had the opposite effect, really.

(00:20:26):
I think I just felt a huge grief and that kind of stayed with me for quite a while.

(00:20:32):
I kind of felt...

(00:20:33):
grief for the support and life I could have had like the more understanding that I

(00:20:38):
could have had as a child and a teenager and how different my life could have been

(00:20:44):
but also just knowing this about myself and that how

(00:20:48):
I'd beaten myself up for so many years about not being good enough or not fitting

(00:20:52):
in or not understanding things like everyone else seems to be able to get and just

(00:20:56):
being able to to know that about myself so I could have been kinder to myself and

(00:21:00):
actually kind of not been so hard and not had that negative self-talk that you grow

(00:21:05):
up with that kind of took me by surprise and I don't think we talk about the grief

(00:21:09):
process enough so if anyone's going through that process now you're absolutely not

(00:21:13):
alone it's really really hard

(00:21:15):
Yeah, it's like the flip side to the validation in that sense, isn't it?

(00:21:19):
You know,

(00:21:19):
you get the diagnosis,

(00:21:21):
there's the validation for,

(00:21:23):
as you say,

(00:21:23):
you're not broken,

(00:21:25):
but the flip side of it and that unraveling of realizing you suddenly see your life

(00:21:32):
through a different lens.

(00:21:34):
And I guess there's lots of unlearning and relearning as well that you've experienced.

(00:21:39):
Absolutely.

(00:21:40):
Yeah, that was what I was going to talk about next.

(00:21:42):
It's exactly that.

(00:21:43):
It's just starting to unpick what's been kind of maybe masked behavior and then

(00:21:49):
trying to unmask and kind of relearn how to better support and understand your own

(00:21:55):
brain.

(00:21:55):
So it really is a process.

(00:21:57):
It's not something that happens overnight.

(00:21:58):
And I'm still learning all the time.

(00:22:00):
I think we all are.

(00:22:02):
we're not all the same and that's that's completely okay things that we can relate

(00:22:06):
to within neurodivergent community which is fantastic because quite a lot of us

(00:22:11):
have quite often felt really isolated or alone in the way that we feel so it's so

(00:22:16):
important that you share and talk to people and find those people that you trust

(00:22:20):
but I think the more that neurotypical people can understand the neurodivergent

(00:22:25):
brain as well I think it's

(00:22:26):
better for everyone the whole conversation around diagnosis and labeling and things

(00:22:33):
is actually not just an important conversation as in should somebody get a

(00:22:38):
diagnosis or should they get a label but I think exactly as you say for people to

(00:22:42):
understand that it's quite a tender time when somebody either receives the

(00:22:47):
diagnosis or when they self-identify and they realize it's like an awakening and

(00:22:53):
they realize wow you know look back over their life

(00:22:56):
as you said grief comes up and then if you've got these processes like unlearning

(00:23:01):
and relearning and unmasking there are other emotions that come up in that as well

(00:23:06):
what else did you experience as you were doing that what does it feel like and how

(00:23:10):
does that happen do you suddenly realize something or notice something it's such a

(00:23:15):
weird thing actually because you start to question everything about yourself

(00:23:21):
actually you kind of start to feel like what's me

(00:23:25):
And what's my neurodivergence?

(00:23:27):
What's me?

(00:23:28):
What's the ADHD?

(00:23:29):
And it's your brain logically obviously trying to work it all out.

(00:23:32):
And,

(00:23:33):
you know,

(00:23:33):
sometimes then you'll look back and you'll think,

(00:23:35):
oh,

(00:23:35):
well,

(00:23:35):
I thought that was just like some quirk that I had.

(00:23:37):
But then you realize it's an ADHD trait.

(00:23:40):
So sometimes you go through this kind of identity crisis as well,

(00:23:44):
because you're just like,

(00:23:44):
I don't really know who I am anymore.

(00:23:47):
What's me?

(00:23:49):
And what's this?

(00:23:52):
think it's a process and relearning who you are is so important yeah but also

(00:23:58):
realizing it's just you it's all part of you it's all of your fantastic brain and

(00:24:04):
all of our brains work differently and it's about embracing that and actually you

(00:24:08):
have to go through this process it affects everyone in completely different ways so

(00:24:12):
some people might never go through the grief stage because they might just be

(00:24:15):
relieved to have a diagnosis or some kind of understanding which is fantastic and

(00:24:19):
everyone's on their own process and on their own journey but for me I had the grief

(00:24:23):
I had a bit of an identity crisis of having to rediscover who I was but also

(00:24:28):
there's something really empowering in that as well because actually you you kind

(00:24:32):
of find your true self and you realize you're not going to mask and hide who you

(00:24:37):
really are anymore and actually then you are able to bring your true authentic self

(00:24:42):
to all that you do and I've got so many things that I'm passionate about and I

(00:24:46):
think you try and fit into these boxes that maybe you

(00:24:50):
aren't right for you or don't work for you and your brain type.

(00:24:53):
And actually that's dulling yourself down.

(00:24:56):
And I don't want to do that anymore.

(00:24:58):
I want to be able to be my true self because it's exhausting.

(00:25:02):
Like masking is exhausting and life's hard enough as it is.

(00:25:06):
I think we need to just be more accepting and kinder to each other.

(00:25:11):
And I think,

(00:25:12):
yeah,

(00:25:13):
it's,

(00:25:13):
it's definitely a journey and I'm learning all the time,

(00:25:16):
but I'm learning now to advocate for myself.

(00:25:19):
But yeah, I still hugely am affected by imposter syndrome and rejection sensitive dysphoria.

(00:25:26):
Yeah.

(00:25:26):
They hit me like a ton of bricks sometimes.

(00:25:29):
At least now that I'm more aware of these things,

(00:25:32):
I can notice when it's happening and I can be kind to myself and just be like,

(00:25:36):
okay,

(00:25:37):
how much of this is based on fact?

(00:25:39):
Yeah.

(00:25:40):
What has actually happened?

(00:25:41):
Let's take it back a step so I can catch myself in these moments.

(00:25:45):
But I think it's just important to know that none of us have it all together all of the time.

(00:25:49):
Yeah, that's OK.

(00:25:50):
I just want to pop back to some of the things that you've said,

(00:25:53):
just for anybody listening who doesn't understand some of the phrases and things

(00:25:57):
that we're using.

(00:25:58):
So masking is something that people hear a lot and they know a lot about.

(00:26:01):
So masking is just one part of something that we call camouflaging,

(00:26:05):
which has different behavioral patterns,

(00:26:08):
things that we do to either pull back.

(00:26:11):
So masking is very much suppressing and pulling back who you are to fit in.

(00:26:16):
And then there are other behaviors like sometimes we behave quite big.

(00:26:21):
Well, acting out and acting up to actually fit in.

(00:26:24):
So people wouldn't think that somebody is masking.

(00:26:26):
They might think,

(00:26:27):
oh,

(00:26:27):
that person's the life and soul of the party when we're all having a big party.

(00:26:30):
But that's also a type of camouflaging.

(00:26:32):
It's where people are seeing what else is going on.

(00:26:35):
And so they just behave in the same way that other people are behaving to fit in.

(00:26:40):
And so there are different ways of people behaving when they feel like they don't

(00:26:44):
fit in to try and fit in.

(00:26:46):
And for many people who are on this rediscovery journey,

(00:26:49):
part of the grief is realizing that these different behaviors have really been

(00:26:54):
behaviors rather than their authentic self.

(00:26:57):
And that's a really big thing.

(00:26:59):
And then imposter syndrome.

(00:27:00):
I think most people are aware of that.

(00:27:02):
So it's not always imposter syndrome.

(00:27:04):
People use the word imposter syndrome.

(00:27:06):
Sometimes it's imposter feelings.

(00:27:08):
But it's basically feeling like you don't belong,

(00:27:10):
you shouldn't be there,

(00:27:11):
that you're not good enough.

(00:27:12):
And not just having that feeling flip through your head,

(00:27:15):
but actually sit deep inside you and influence how your confidence and anxiety and

(00:27:21):
lots of other emotions and things going on.

(00:27:23):
And RSD,

(00:27:24):
I have mentioned in a previous podcast on rejection recoil,

(00:27:28):
but I'm just going to ask Toni if she would explain what RSD is to everybody.

(00:27:34):
Yeah, of course.

(00:27:35):
So there's quite a lot of information around rejection sensitive dysphoria.

(00:27:39):
And it has been known to be linked with ADHD, but it's also linked with autism.

(00:27:45):
And it's actually also heavily linked to trauma.

(00:27:48):
And I think it's really hard to unpack where it comes from.

(00:27:51):
But it's definitely it's a real thing.

(00:27:53):
And

(00:27:55):
It's when someone takes any kind of perceived or real rejection and criticism and

(00:28:01):
feels it so deeply and sometimes physically and actually it hugely affects how they

(00:28:08):
behave.

(00:28:09):
So,

(00:28:09):
for example,

(00:28:10):
you might be in a meeting and somebody gives you a look that you don't maybe

(00:28:16):
understand.

(00:28:16):
identify as normal and in your head you can internalize right what's happened

(00:28:20):
something's gone wrong like they don't like me now or if I've done something wrong

(00:28:23):
in my job and you will internalize these thoughts and feelings and be panicking um

(00:28:28):
based on that one thing that may or may not have been any kind of criticism but for

(00:28:33):
you

(00:28:34):
That felt very real in the moment and that you will then worry about that for a long time.

(00:28:39):
And I think something that we all experience quite a lot,

(00:28:42):
actually,

(00:28:43):
is,

(00:28:43):
for example,

(00:28:44):
if you get an email or a text from someone you work with or a friend,

(00:28:48):
you know,

(00:28:49):
that just says something like we need a chat,

(00:28:51):
but with no context.

(00:28:52):
You can take that in a real overwhelming, scary way and think, oh my gosh, they hate me.

(00:28:57):
Like I've lost my job or they don't like me anymore.

(00:28:59):
They don't want to be my friend.

(00:29:00):
I'm not going to have a job anymore.

(00:29:02):
And it just spirals.

(00:29:03):
So actually just being aware that we all process information differently and

(00:29:08):
actually some people...

(00:29:10):
will take any kind of negativity or just any kind of criticism even if it's needed

(00:29:16):
we are going to make mistakes sometimes we all learn we need to improve you know so

(00:29:20):
yeah so we will make mistakes and actually you need to be able to be told when you

(00:29:24):
need to do things right or if you've kind of written an email in a wrong way or

(00:29:28):
it's perceived a different way we need to be pulled up on that

(00:29:30):
I think it's just so important that we are mindful of how we communicate with each

(00:29:35):
other and actually just conduct ourselves with a bit of sensitivity.

(00:29:38):
We've all got different sensitivity levels, but I personally feel things extremely deeply.

(00:29:45):
I have always been told my whole life that I'm too sensitive, which I don't think is a thing.

(00:29:50):
Nobody's too sensitive.

(00:29:51):
You're exactly as you're supposed to be.

(00:29:53):
But that does mean that I will.

(00:29:55):
react to things that I felt as deeply upsetting that perhaps wasn't meant that way

(00:30:01):
and it's just about being mindful that our brains are all different and there's no

(00:30:05):
wrong or right way just to try and be mindful about how we word things or how maybe

(00:30:10):
we come across in in social environments or in work environments it's

(00:30:14):
Yeah, definitely.

(00:30:15):
And I think also in the way you described the experience of rejection sensitivity

(00:30:20):
dysphoria,

(00:30:21):
sometimes there are gaps in communication,

(00:30:23):
like somebody who is sensitive to rejection will fill those gaps in.

(00:30:28):
And actually neurotypical people do this as well.

(00:30:30):
It's not just neurodivergent people.

(00:30:32):
It's just that it's very common in neurodivergent people.

(00:30:35):
But it's where there are gaps in communication that sometimes the assumption will

(00:30:40):
go more quickly to red,

(00:30:42):
the catastrophizing.

(00:30:43):
rather than actually waiting and thinking right there's a gap there i need to go

(00:30:47):
back and fill that i need to go back and get more information about this i think

(00:30:51):
it's it's understandable though because you know you you've seen the stats about

(00:30:56):
neurodivergent children so i think it depends which data you read but i think by

(00:31:01):
the age of 12 a neurodivergent child has received 20 000 times more criticism than

(00:31:06):
a neurotypical

(00:31:07):
I tell that in all of my training as well,

(00:31:09):
because I think you just need a moment to let that sink in and realize how that

(00:31:14):
would impact someone in their life going forward.

(00:31:16):
So if that's what you've grown up like with so much negativity and criticism,

(00:31:22):
you're going to carry that with you into adult life.

(00:31:24):
It's inevitable.

(00:31:25):
It's really hard to unpick that and go back.

(00:31:28):
And I think one of the biggest things that I face myself and I see in a lot of

(00:31:33):
other neurodivergent people is confidence.

(00:31:35):
It's like lack of self-esteem because you feel quite often that you're so beaten

(00:31:39):
down that you don't really know how to come back from that.

(00:31:42):
It's so interlinked with RSD.

(00:31:44):
And, but as you said, it doesn't just affect neurodivergent people.

(00:31:47):
It's neurotypical people too, because it's not just neurodiversity related.

(00:31:51):
It's also trauma related.

(00:31:52):
And obviously there's so much to unpack there,

(00:31:55):
but it's just important that we're all a bit more mindful that these things do

(00:31:58):
exist.

(00:31:58):
It is a real thing and it really affects people.

(00:32:01):
Yeah, definitely.

(00:32:02):
And so on that whole unraveling journey that we were talking about,

(00:32:06):
where were you at in your life in what was happening in your life when you were

(00:32:11):
experiencing the unraveling journey?

(00:32:13):
Were you already working with neurodivergent people?

(00:32:15):
Or is that something that's happened?

(00:32:17):
No, I wasn't like a lot of people in this field.

(00:32:20):
I was going through a bit of a difficult time in my previous, previous job.

(00:32:24):
So I was working in finance.

(00:32:27):
I'm not a finance person.

(00:32:28):
So how I ended up working in finance for like eight years, I've no idea.

(00:32:32):
Had a very squiggly career.

(00:32:34):
Squiggly career.

(00:32:35):
I've got a squiggly career as well.

(00:32:36):
Yeah.

(00:32:36):
I mean, it's great.

(00:32:37):
There's so much life experience and definitely wasn't a clear path.

(00:32:41):
But I was in this job and my team had changed and I'd gone through

(00:32:46):
some pretty difficult work situations.

(00:32:48):
I'd gone through, been bullied.

(00:32:50):
I'd gone through harassment situations when we were in the office and I tried to

(00:32:55):
speak to people about it and it just didn't go very well.

(00:32:58):
It wasn't met with understanding or empathy.

(00:33:01):
It was got down like, oh no, that person's great.

(00:33:04):
I've always thought they were really lovely.

(00:33:05):
These things had happened in this same work situation and it took its toll on me, to be honest.

(00:33:10):
And I ended up being signed off work

(00:33:13):
This is when I discovered that there was more going on and there was something that

(00:33:16):
I,

(00:33:17):
you know,

(00:33:17):
I needed to do.

(00:33:18):
So I went to the doctors and sought my diagnosis.

(00:33:21):
And I think being off work, I did more voluntary work.

(00:33:24):
So I've been volunteering in various roles for probably about 15 years.

(00:33:29):
And I absolutely love it because, again, the people that you meet are fantastic.

(00:33:33):
You're doing things to help support other people.

(00:33:36):
You get to gain new skills and experience.

(00:33:38):
So I think the more of that I did whilst I was trying to kind of unpick what was

(00:33:42):
going on with me,

(00:33:43):
the more I realized I was just definitely wasn't suited to my job and I needed to

(00:33:47):
switch things up,

(00:33:48):
go to the doctors.

(00:33:49):
I got my referral.

(00:33:51):
That took quite a long time.

(00:33:52):
So yeah, I just...

(00:33:54):
spent the time trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life because I

(00:33:58):
realized that I'd been putting everybody else before myself for my whole life so my

(00:34:04):
children were a little bit older now and they were both at school and quite settled

(00:34:07):
and quite established in school so I realized that actually I'd been putting my

(00:34:12):
career on hold and you know I've never been a particularly career focused person

(00:34:16):
because I've never really known what I wanted to do you know hence the squiggly

(00:34:20):
path but just knowing that they were okay meant I was like okay

(00:34:24):
I can maybe think about what I'd like to do with my life and do something that

(00:34:28):
makes me feel more fulfilled so yeah all of the voluntary work that I did meant

(00:34:32):
that I finally was able to make the change so I moved away from finance and moved

(00:34:37):
into the charity sector but when I discovered my neurodivergence I obviously went

(00:34:42):
down the huge rabbit hole of learning more and training and qualifying in various

(00:34:46):
fields and I just wanted to help people

(00:34:50):
feel less alone and help support people through times that can be really difficult

(00:34:54):
and I think I just didn't want anybody to feel like I did I didn't want anyone to

(00:34:59):
feel like they're on their own in it or that they weren't understood or that they

(00:35:03):
weren't valued or appreciated yeah so I think that that's what kind of led me here

(00:35:07):
and yeah I'm working in the charity sector which is you know I'm never going to be

(00:35:11):
a millionaire

(00:35:12):
my heart is full that's really lovely to hear you know not many people can say that

(00:35:17):
can they my heart is full and that's a really powerful thing to be able to say and

(00:35:23):
also a powerful encouragement as well to other people who may be going through that

(00:35:28):
grieving process that unraveling where they think what on earth is happening here

(00:35:32):
rediscovering themselves to

(00:35:34):
you know,

(00:35:34):
for us to be able to say,

(00:35:35):
the day will come when you are able to wake up and say,

(00:35:38):
my heart is full.

(00:35:40):
Actually, this is a good place to be in.

(00:35:42):
It's a good thing to know.

(00:35:43):
Traditionally,

(00:35:43):
there hasn't been a lot of support out there for women who are late diagnosed and

(00:35:48):
rediscovering who they are.

(00:35:49):
And there is an increasing amount of support.

(00:35:51):
Obviously, you're working in a sector where you're able to support people.

(00:35:55):
I also support people with that.

(00:35:57):
I'm really excited that I'm nearly

(00:35:59):
finished with the ordhd coach qualification as well and that also really very much

(00:36:03):
involves discovery and rediscovery for people and getting to know themselves so

(00:36:08):
with all the things that you do how can people get in touch with you to connect

(00:36:12):
with you if they want to stay in touch or know more about the many different things

(00:36:17):
that you do

(00:36:18):
So, yeah, I can be found on LinkedIn.

(00:36:21):
Search Tony Ann Green, you'll find me.

(00:36:23):
And creative business is called Tony is Kind by Design.

(00:36:26):
But there's information about that on LinkedIn.

(00:36:29):
And I've got my coaching.

(00:36:31):
I've only got Instagram for that at the moment.

(00:36:33):
What I've not been great at is the business side of things.

(00:36:36):
Clients have found me.

(00:36:38):
And I think that's worked for me so far.

(00:36:40):
But the coaching Instagram page that I made was mostly actually about making a

(00:36:45):
space for awareness to help teach people a bit more about neurodiversity in a safe,

(00:36:50):
non-judgmental space,

(00:36:52):
whether that's

(00:36:53):
trying to learn about themselves or how to support other people.

(00:36:56):
So it's been more about pushing out the information just to really break it down

(00:37:01):
and help you see how these conditions can impact someone and how you can support

(00:37:05):
people.

(00:37:06):
I'm on Instagram under TonyannCoaching.

(00:37:08):
Yes, those are the ways that you can connect with me.

(00:37:11):
And I can absolutely affirm that Tony is really encouraging and a really good listener.

(00:37:16):
And if you are looking for support there for that one-to-one support,

(00:37:21):
especially around neurodivergency in the workplace,

(00:37:24):
or even if you're somebody listening and you are a leader,

(00:37:26):
we do have leaders listening,

(00:37:28):
and you think we actually need some decent training in our workplace or work with

(00:37:31):
our team around how are we more inclusive,

(00:37:35):
not just to tick a box,

(00:37:36):
but actually to really work on your culture of inclusivity and stuff.

(00:37:41):
then get in touch with tony because she has lots of experience of working with

(00:37:45):
teams and groups of people and you'll have very honest and open and empathetic

(00:37:50):
constructive conversation so that's brilliant so before we go tony what's one thing

(00:37:56):
or many things that you would say to encourage anyone who is neurodivergent or

(00:38:03):
wondering if they're neurodivergent they are late diagnosed people late diagnosed

(00:38:07):
women in particular a lot of

(00:38:08):
that at the moment for women who well culturally the way that we've been raised and

(00:38:15):
what society expects of women has often just as you've explained from your story

(00:38:21):
has made people who are neurodivergent have often been labeled with anxiety or

(00:38:26):
depression or being too sensitive or being too loud and being too much too little

(00:38:31):
and all of this all at the same time and

(00:38:33):
increasingly there are women not just with that as their story but other ways where

(00:38:39):
they are beginning to see that they have very much learned to fit in with the way

(00:38:44):
they were raised or the way that their communities and societies have expected them

(00:38:49):
to be in a way that has been quite counterintuitive to who they really are and

(00:38:54):
they've internalized it all the journey and then this discovery and realizing

(00:38:58):
actually

(00:38:59):
I am not broken, exactly as you've said, is really powerful.

(00:39:02):
So what would you say to people at that point?

(00:39:05):
I think I would say that you are exactly who you're supposed to be.

(00:39:10):
You are not broken.

(00:39:12):
You're absolutely not alone.

(00:39:13):
And it's important to be true to yourself,

(00:39:15):
but find people you trust,

(00:39:17):
talk about it,

(00:39:18):
just open up.

(00:39:19):
I think the more we talk and have open communication,

(00:39:22):
the more we can relate and understand each other.

(00:39:25):
And I think that's going to be better for everyone.

(00:39:27):
But I think

(00:39:29):
The biggest, most important thing is just please be kind to yourself.

(00:39:34):
All of our brains are different and that should be absolutely celebrated.

(00:39:38):
There's nothing wrong with us.

(00:39:39):
We need different skills in life and we're all bringing something to the table.

(00:39:42):
So just please be kind to yourself and make sure you look after yourself.

(00:39:46):
as well as you look after others.

(00:39:48):
So I think it's really important as well as you don't need a diagnosis to access

(00:39:52):
any of this support or these services.

(00:39:54):
I think self-diagnosing is just as important.

(00:39:56):
And actually it's about understanding our individual brains and less about trying

(00:40:01):
to fit into a box that,

(00:40:02):
you know,

(00:40:03):
these conditions can sometimes feel that they put you in.

(00:40:06):
We all matter and all of our brains are fabulous and we just need to work with them

(00:40:10):
as opposed to against them.

(00:40:11):
Diagnosis or not.

(00:40:13):
That is just such brilliant advice.

(00:40:15):
And I love that phrase that you used, we all bring something different to the table.

(00:40:20):
And it's just so important, isn't it?

(00:40:22):
Neurodivergent people are not less.

(00:40:24):
Yes, and they're all bringing so much to the table.

(00:40:27):
We all have something to give.

(00:40:28):
And it's really important to remember that.

(00:40:31):
Tony,

(00:40:31):
thank you so much for joining me today,

(00:40:33):
for sharing heart,

(00:40:34):
sharing your skills and your knowledge with us as well.

(00:40:38):
And I'm really excited to have had you here.

(00:40:40):
on the podcast if you're looking for coaching or organizational work with somebody

(00:40:45):
like Tony then get in touch with Tony thank you I just want to say thank you so

(00:40:49):
much to you as well all of the fantastic work that you're doing is so inspiring and

(00:40:54):
do you know as soon as I met you I instantly was like yeah I like you we go really

(00:40:59):
well and actually it's it's lovely so thank you for all the fantastic work that

(00:41:04):
you're doing and uh yeah I'm just very happy to have met you

(00:41:09):
Oh, Toni.

(00:41:09):
See, I told you, she's an encourager.